"It's genocide in Gaza, even the Israelis say so: Palestinian hunger is more damaging than bombs," says Anna Foa.

The courage to take a stand, arguing with the strength of ideas. A defining trait of Anna Foa , a figure who brings prestige to Italian Judaism. Professor Foa taught Modern History at the University of Rome La Sapienza. She has studied the history of culture in the early modern period, the history of mentality, and the history of the Jews. Her latest book, Il suicida di Israele (The Suicide of Israel , published by Laterza), won the Strega Prize for nonfiction and was a great success with the public.

In a recent article of yours in La Stampa , there's a very important statement. I quote: " Now Palestinians and Israelis have the same enemy, Netanyahu." Where does this assertion come from, Professor Foa? The fact that the demonstrations in recent weeks have combined the rescue of the hostages with the condemnation of the killing of Palestinian children strikes me as a very strong connection. In the early days, somehow, the rescue of the hostages prevailed; it was something felt very strongly in Israel, while what Alpher, Gideon Levy , and others deplored as an ethical and even empathetic deafness to the terrible things happening in Gaza still existed. In the last two months, something profound has changed.

What is this due to? Hunger. Something that strikes the imagination and even the ethics of people much more deeply, and not just among Netanyahu's opponents. It has also had an impact in the political world. The breaking of the truce, the beginning of the aid freeze, and then the transformation of international aid into fake aid by this American and Israeli organization—all this has also changed the world's perception. Some might say, and rightly so, too slowly. But a change has occurred. Hunger is something different from bombs, in the sense that hunger seems more deliberate. Then there's another very important thing that has happened...

Which? The word genocide has been legitimized in Israel. If you look at the images of the children and young people participating in the demonstrations, the word "genocide" is now everywhere, whereas until a month ago it wasn't. This means there has been a fusion between those who were only concerned with a war that seemed destructive to the Israelis—while the Palestinians were given little attention, because everything focused on the hostages—and those who have also taken on the ethical duty of thinking about the disaster, the genocide, the extermination of Gaza, alongside those who are concerned about Israel's fate. If things continue like this, this could be the moment when the internal situation in Israel changes, something decisive, because if we want to end the war, a political change in Israel's leadership is essential.

In our previous conversations, you have always made a point of distinguishing between the State, the Government, and the people of Israel. A distinction that is not semantic but substantial. Opposition to Netanyahu's war has been evident for a long time, already a couple of months after that tragic October 7, 2023. But it was an opposition that focused primarily on the hostages, the soldiers. We must never forget that the trauma of October 7 was still very much alive. There are many articles in Haaretz, several of which L'Unità deservedly published, that lament this lack of empathy for the victims of the bombings on Gaza . I have the feeling that this has changed and that it has merged with intolerability, intolerance for the terrible things happening in Gaza or the West Bank , which before, I insist, wasn't there. Now I doubt that one can speak of a lack of empathy when there are young Israelis, Jews, who go to sleep in Palestinian homes to avoid settlers attacking and killing them. This is an extraordinary thing that I have truly never seen anywhere else. There's the eighteen-year-old daughter of some friends of ours whose car was burned by settlers while she was staying at a Palestinian home trying to protect them. Sixteen-, eighteen-, nineteen-year-olds come there saying, " We are Jews and we are here to protect you by being here." It seems extraordinary to me. The fusion between grief for the hostages and concern for Israel, with opposition to a war that at a certain point, after a few months, no one felt was theirs anymore.

Why, Professor Foa? Because it appeared to be a war of revenge, not a war to save the hostages. Now everyone is deeply concerned about what's happening in Gaza, and they have this perception. This represents a quantum leap in popular opposition to Netanyahu and the most disastrous government Israel has ever had. I continue to believe that the government is not the same as the people, even though, it must be said, the people are divided; there are still many supporters of Netanyahu. But now, those two sides, once absolutely marginal, tiny, and represented by a few intellectuals, have become unified. This is why I have said and written that Palestinians and Jews, in Israel and in the Occupied Territories, have the same enemy: Benjamin Netanyahu.

Simply for using the word suicide in the title of your latest book, or for using the term genocide , you have faced harsh criticism, even from within the Jewish community. Don't you think that by speaking these painful truths, you and others—I'm thinking, for example, of Stefano Levi della Torre—have shown yourselves to be true friends of Israel? You see, I know it's never been understood that way, but I meant using the word "suicide" to mean I was concerned about Israel's fate, as well as the fate of the Palestinians. I had two concerns, but knowing Israel better, having lived there, albeit for short periods, I felt better able to reason about this. I'm not a Zionist, but that doesn't mean I think Israelis should be thrown into the sea. I'm an " anti-Zionist " and I don't come from a family in which the relationship with Israel was considered important. It was a strongly diasporic family, and that's my tradition. Nonetheless, it's obvious that I know Israel better. And at that moment, when I wrote that book, my concern was for Israel. Then came the concern, and the indignation, over the massive massacre of Palestinians. And the conviction grew ever stronger in me that the fate of Israel—political and also military, but above all ethical—and the fate of the Palestinians were closely, inextricably linked.

A country's stature is also determined by its leadership. How did it happen that Israel's greats, like Yitzhak Rabin, evolved into politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu? I could say this isn't the only case. Just think of the United States and even Italy, and the list could go on. Everywhere we are faced with the absolute political and intellectual decadence of the ruling class. Furthermore, everywhere, and not just in Israel, real, capable leaders are struggling to emerge. This applies to Israel, but also to the Palestinians. One hopes for Marwan Barghouti, but he has been in Israeli prisons for decades. And this demonstrates a profound leadership shortage in the Palestinian camp as well. In Israel, some have come forward, even in important positions—I'm thinking, for example, of Yair Golan and even former Likud members—but none of them have yet managed to acquire a recognized leadership role. This is also because Israel has changed greatly, and this change is probably not yet perceptible. Perhaps among young people, in the coming months, not years, someone will emerge who understands the change, who will draw the conclusions from what these almost two terrible years have been, for Israel and even more so for Palestine, for Gaza, for the Gazans. Every time I read about what's happening in Gaza, every time I see certain shocking images, I get the feeling that we're witnessing something unprecedented.

These have been very intense months for you: the presentations of your book, the debates you've participated in around Italy. What feelings have you brought back? How has your perception of what's happening in that tormented part of the world changed, if at all? First of all, I've noticed much more interest than in November or December. Interest has grown significantly in recent months. At the latest initiatives I've attended, there were far more people present than one might have imagined a few months ago. This has a profound impact on public opinion. There's still a growing intolerance for opinions that differ slightly from one's own, especially on social media. I think we should try to find compromises, not with regard to the enemy we must defeat—that is, Netanyahu—with regard to the war, but rather to smooth out the most radical differences. Find the reasons that bring us together instead of emphasizing our differences. This would give even more strength here in Italy to the pressure on the government, for recognition of the Palestinian state and for intervention in Gaza, but the issue is even more important in Israel, where uniting the opposition's diverse forces is crucial. On the other hand, it's typical of each resistance movement to bring its diverse forces together, at least at key moments. This was done for the Italian anti-fascist resistance, and it paid off. For now, I don't feel like there's yet the necessary awareness of this need, especially regarding Israel and the Palestinian tragedy. There's really no time left there.

It's often said that without memory there is no future. But a great Israeli writer, Amos Oz, who has now passed away, argued that perhaps it was time for Israel to free itself from the burden of memory, to no longer be its prisoner. I agree with this. I think that if we want to reach at least a compromise that allows Palestinians and Israelis to live side by side without killing each other, this also requires a review of our use of memory. Memory has been violated in Israel. And this isn't just about the Netanyahu government. It began with the Eichmann trial, which was a process of establishing the State of Israel on the memory of the Holocaust, which in itself is more than legitimate, but which also had many negative aspects, becoming something completely distorted under these rulers, these religious messianists. It's not just the memory of the Holocaust. It's also the reading of the Bible to demonstrate that this is Eretz Yisrael, the Holy Land of Israel. It's archaeology put at the service of memory. So many things that need to be done away with. I know it's very difficult, but I hope that at some point even the Palestinians will give up at least a little piece of their memory. Memory as a constituent of identity on both sides. But at this point, perhaps it's necessary to move beyond this identity and seek another, more common one. An identity as shared as possible.

FROM

Umberto De Giovannangeli